In this episode of the Ascend UX podcast, host Ayan Bihi sits down with Marvin Hassan, a seasoned UX designer and leader, to discuss how to build a career with intention. Whether you’re a newbie or a veteran in the UX field, this episode is packed with actionable insights, inspiring stories, and a roadmap to elevate your UX journey. Enjoy
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Building your career with intention
[00:00:00] Ayan: Hey everyone, welcome to the Ascend UX podcast. I'm Ayan Bihi, your host and a passionate UX designer and manager at PROS. Today, I'm excited to be joined by fellow designer and UX leader, Marvin Hassan.
[00:00:12] Welcome Marvin.
[00:00:14] Marvin: Hi there, Ayan. Thank you for having me.
[00:00:17] Ayan: My pleasure. So in this episode, Marvin, I will explore how you can build your career with intention. Whether you're just starting out or a seasoned pro, get ready for some actionable insights, inspiring stories, and a roadmap to elevate your UX journey.
[00:00:32] But before we begin, allow me to introduce Marvin, who will be our guest today.
[00:00:36] Marvin has over 20 years of experience, both as an individual contributor and in leadership roles.
[00:00:41] He's built a successful design team that contributes to business success through UX design practices, and he's helped other UX designers level up their skills along the way. For him, success is defined by values and principles, not just job titles and salary bumps. And that's exactly why he's joined us today, to share some insights that he's [00:01:00] learned by walking the walk and leveraging his skills to create real impact.
[00:01:03] Welcome once again, Marvin.
[00:01:04] I'm excited to chat with you today.
[00:01:06] Marvin: Wow, thank you. what a lovely introduction.
[00:01:09] Ayan: So Marvin, let's start with your journey.
[00:01:12] Can you share some pivotal moments in your UX path that led you to your current role as a UX design manager and mentor?
[00:01:19] Marvin: Yeah, I originally started in this whole design game when it was still called web design at large. I studied for my MBA and then when the internet came around or was more public, I guess I started building websites and my employer at the time said you're doing these website things.
[00:01:34] Why don't you do ours travel agency back then? And yeah, at some point after building a small agency with a few friends where we did marketing websites I Understood for myself that I actually wanted to be a bit more impactful and go beyond just advertisement and marketing and really, help make complex things more easy to understand because I think that's what designers [00:02:00] do best. So I was lucky enough to meet someone who was already in the UX scene. he introduced me to a conference here in Germany or Berlin, actually, UX Camp Europe. And ever since my first visit, I was just hooked. I was like, this is my crowd. These are my people.
[00:02:15] That's exactly what I need to be doing. So I joined another company as a UX designer. And then after a few months there, I, jumped on the opportunity to lead a team and started managing design teams from there on building design organizations. And on the way, like you said, helping designers scale up and find the true path and become better, more impactful designers, more integrated in the organizations.
[00:02:42] And very recently, actually, I've decided for myself that I'm not taking another management role. As of now that I'm focusing all my attention on helping others in career coaching and establishing themselves and finding a new path.
[00:02:57] Ayan: I think that's one of my favorite questions is [00:03:00] figuring out how designers got into where they are, because it always sounds, very serendipitous for us, right? It's like connecting these dots. One thing leads to another, then another.
[00:03:09] And then we find out our passion, which as you said, is making the complex simple. And by the way, I've been to UX camp and everybody who's not familiar with it. It is a great event in Berlin. It's a non UX conference, if you will, because anybody can join and talk about whatever they want.
[00:03:25] That's UX related. So if you're interested, I definitely recommend checking out UX camp.
[00:03:30] Marvin: Yeah, I always say it's like a family gathering without the weird uncles. It's really good for me. It's always connection realigning also seeing that it's crazy for everyone out there and a bit of a support group, if you will, right?
[00:03:48] Ayan: For sure. The power of community. So Marvin, UX can be very opaque. How do you personally define UX design?
[00:03:55] Marvin: I'm not going to go into all the discussions of what are the titles, what should we call ourselves, [00:04:00] because I think those are very academic and no one else cares. If I was to put it very simply, and this is what I used to use when my mom would ask me, I would say I make software understandable.
[00:04:10] I make it so that people outside actually want to use the software and get stuff done with it. That's my very, broad and easy definition of it.
[00:04:20] Ayan: Yeah, it's making it relatable to the person, right? Because again, if we go really deep into the weeds, or as you said, like the existential crisis of what is our title, you definitely lose people.
[00:04:30] Marvin: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm almost a bit sad, especially when I hear More senior, older people talk about, Oh, this is UX and this isn't UX because we're responsible for what it is right now. And in a way, whatever it isn't, lies within our own powers.
[00:04:46] And. if it's not what we wanted it to be 20 years ago, then it's probably our fault, and we need to be able to fix it from within.
[00:04:53] Ayan: Bringing out some accountability. I like that. And what you said made me think of something, actually. It seems like UX right now is in [00:05:00] this interesting shift. You and I come from a place where we connected the dots to be where we are today.
[00:05:04] But what's interesting is to see more and more. Academic programs that are focused towards UX. Do you think that's going to change the role in any way?
[00:05:11] Marvin: I think there's a lot we still need to do. What I see currently in the European market largely is boot camps. And while I think they're a really great way of getting started, I think sometimes there's a tendency of over promising what, can be done.
[00:05:27] I tell clients of mine you had a career before you studied something before and took you three or four years to learn that craft. Now you went to a bootcamp for six months and you expect to be ready for market with just that education. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to fence.
[00:05:41] I think UX should be open to everyone. And, lots of people with different perspectives are valuable to the craft, but it just takes time to learn. So I look forward to more. Lengthy, more thorough academic programs coming in to teach. But I also think that not everything has to be done in academics that you can find ways of [00:06:00] learning, the craft through the community.
[00:06:01] And there's great programs out there that are free. We can just get, some hands on method learning. But I also think, Some of the stuff you actually have to be learning by doing so I wish there more opportunities for more junior people to step into roles earlier and I, applaud any company that is ready and able to hire more junior people and then have them learn on the job
[00:06:21] Ayan: Marvin, as a Berlinois, or somebody born and raised in Berlin, I'm curious to know more about the UX scene there. What are some trends, challenges and opportunities you're currently seeing?
[00:06:31] Marvin: Yeah. It's really big. I think there's a reason why UX camp Europe is 600 people a lot of the attendees are actually from Berlin as well. we have a huge startup scene. So there's quite a few startups that offer. roles and meetups and just a lot of exchange. But as the rest of the world, we've also been hit by layoffs very recently. And so the market is tougher, but I am seeing first signals of it getting better.
[00:06:55] I see more senior roles up now, more leadership positions that are actually interesting coming up what I [00:07:00] absolutely enjoy about the scene in Berlin is that it's really diverse. We have people from absolutely all over the world. in my last team, I had 12 people hired, including, a few on a marketing team.
[00:07:12] And we had only three of those people actually come from Germany. It was really diverse and really fun to see those different people come together and I always think it adds perspectives and it adds value to an organization and definitely for the community as well.
[00:07:25] Ayan: So let's get back to leadership. What methodology do you follow as a UX leader to effectively guide and manage a design team?
[00:07:32] Marvin: I don't think there's necessarily something very strict, but a few things I'm very keen on.
[00:07:37] One is I shouldn't be the best designer on the team. If I am, I've not done my job as a manager. when I hire, I always hire for a cultural fit first. I want to see that you can do the craft obviously, but that can get done relatively quickly by looking at your portfolio, sometimes even the resume.
[00:07:55] But then I want to talk about how well do you integrate to our culture and the [00:08:00] organization? What can you add? And I want to lead at eye level. As far as that is possible. I've come to realize through the years of managing that, there is a hierarchy and there's no way to, assume that there's not if you, as a manager the room, atmosphere changes because you have the power of letting people go and deciding over the performance.
[00:08:22] but I want to be empowering, always have open conversations. I need lots of feedback to make sure that I, as a manager get better. there's saying people don't leave companies. They leave managers. I think that's very true. you need to build engagement as a manager to make sure that doesn't happen, that you become a good enough manager that people want to stick around with you.
[00:08:41] I think sometimes I've succeeded that, but I definitely know that for others, I probably wasn't a good manager. And one thing I always tell them is My job is to make sure that they can deliver the best design work at their stage in our organization. So I have to build the environment, shield them where I need to from influences outside, but also translate [00:09:00] strategy and make it operational to the level of my teammates so they can run in the right direction and don't feel disconnected to what the organization is doing.
[00:09:06] Ayan: Seems all under the, Theme of being human centric, not just looking at them as a resource, but also understanding that there are people that you're working with and all the aspects that come into play. As you said, with the hierarchy, how did you get to this type of management?
[00:09:20] Marvin: I actually just jumped in the deep end. When I was hired at a company as a senior, and I went there because I wanted to work with someone who was inspiring to me when the hiring manager was like, this is someone who can actually teach me something.
[00:09:33] And as soon as I got there, that person left two days later. And. I applied for the position and almost was voted in by the team. That made it very natural for me to not come in as on the new boss, but come in as in I was one of you now, how do we build this thing better together?
[00:09:49] And that's how I approached it from then on. But I have to say that it did take a bit of learning on what my role really was and how I needed to distance myself from being part of the team at a point.
[00:09:58] Although, like you said, I don't [00:10:00] believe in having resources. I believe in having team members and the whole person counts.
[00:10:04] Ayan: Yeah, so it seems like we're building a manager toolkit. So in this toolkit, we got the tool of coaching, leadership, and overall management. Is there any other tools that are in that toolkit for you?
[00:10:15] Marvin: There's one thing and you probably know that I always refer to, and that's, candid feedback. You probably know the book by Kim Scott, Radical Candor, right?
[00:10:22] It's an oldie but goodie, and I always refer to it. It's one of those books, I think, that are 200 pages long because the editor said it was, needed to be a book and needed to be 200 pages long. But the gist of it is take the whole person into account, give feedback directly and candidly, so make sure that it's, it's understandable and it's fair and it's helpful.
[00:10:40] And establish a kind of culture of that level of feedback. And I think that is one of the tools you definitely need to have under your belt as a manager. And it's not easy to combine. It's something you have to learn. I had people tell me I was too nice for years and years until it sunk in.
[00:10:55] Ayan: So what I think I'd love to ask from you is, as designers progress in their careers, [00:11:00] how does their role and maybe impact evolve?
[00:11:03] Marvin: Wow. All right, so at the beginning of your career, you'll probably find yourself largely in the delivery position, right? So in delivery, it's about building products that maybe someone else is more closely defined. And as you grow your level of understanding of the problem and the business around it, and how it, solving a problem contributes to business success needs to grow and become different. So that's how also your role changes, right?
[00:11:27] from a senior's perspective, I would expect Much clearer understanding of what a problem is. Be very involved in problem discovery. if the organization allows design maturity obviously is at play here. But you need to be able to foster that and have conversations with your product managers at eye level and to support them in reaching company goals.
[00:11:47] And obviously if you go beyond that leadership kind of roles, your level of ambiguity you deal with just keeps increasing. And then you become more responsible for whole areas of products and keeping their [00:12:00] experience, consistent
[00:12:00] yeah, it does change and it is largely about what you understand about the problem and how to solve that? What do you understand about the customer? But also, what do you understand about what the business want? Cause after all Design is a business unit, right? And the faster we understand and accept that, I think the more impactful and better contributors we can be to the organization.
[00:12:19] Ayan: I think we need to put that like large design is a business unit.
[00:12:22] Cause sometimes we're really focused on the art or the craft, but we forget that without the clients, we won't be able to have fun in figma to bring forward these visions or concepts that we have. My next question.
[00:12:34] You spoke about the person in their early career, do you think that designer could even start building their career with intention early on.
[00:12:42] Marvin: Absolutely. Even though it changes, I think it totally helps to create some understanding of who you are, what your values are, what you want in this world and why you want to be a designer.
[00:12:50] it's something I always discuss with my clients, especially now in a tough market where you have some kind of stand out from the crowd of applicants. I think it's essential that you understand who you are doing some of this [00:13:00] kind of. Identity work, I guess it would be right because you don't always have to start just in one aspect, even if the delivery part is large enough for you to do different things, right?
[00:13:08] Testing doing more conceptual work. Which area do you want to go into? Is it web? Is it mobile? All of these things matter. And yeah, following your path with intention and understanding who you are, giving yourself a bit of direction definitely is helpful.
[00:13:22] Ayan: And I think there's three letters that come up, especially in regards of intention, and that is why.
[00:13:26] Why are you in design? Why do you want to grow? Why should I put this here in the screen?
[00:13:31] Marvin: Absolutely love that. Yes. Asking yourself, why do you actually want this And I think it actually applies all throughout your career. I have this talk I give about. Stepping into management. And one of the last slides is actually, you could also be content with not taking your career the next step, right? Cause if we're honest ourselves, we earn a pretty good living relatively quickly in this career. So why do you always need to go up?
[00:13:53] Why do you want a senior title? What is it that you really want? Do you want to become more impactful? That could be in a senior title, but it could also be [00:14:00] focusing on design system, for example. I'd use that example because someone who defines how the whole organization builds because they defined the building blocks is hugely impactful to the organization, to what the user actually sees, right?
[00:14:15] Without ever having the next title. So understanding what it is you really want by asking yourself why is a great way to build some intention.
[00:14:22] Ayan: That's a great point. It also reflects is the intention to grow personally, or is the intention to follow prescribed notions of success? I have to move up because that's the next thing for me. And that's the title that I should have versus I want to have something that's fulfilling. And as you said, impactful, like a design system is the foundations of all the products that we get to work on or interact with as users.
[00:14:44] Marvin: And this brings me to another point. I think we, as a craft, as a field or design community, haven't yet discovered all the roles we need. To actually be complete. We focus on UX designer or UX, UI designer product, whatever you want to call it, going from junior to [00:15:00] lead, and then maybe in the management and that's it, right?
[00:15:02] But there can be people who educate, there can be people who coach, mentor. There can be people who evangelize UX writers, researchers. There's so many roles out there that we can fulfill. And I'm certain we haven't discovered them all yet. So maybe your why lies within something else. Maybe it's a different role that.
[00:15:18] Isn't there and you have to craft it yourself, but I think especially right now with the market being so tough, it offers a lot of opportunities for finding out what your own path could be and then building something from there.
[00:15:29] Ayan: Yeah. instead of feeling like that, there's a standard path.
[00:15:32] It's how we got to our path today. Just connecting those dots and asking yourself questions. Am I happy here? What else can I do? And just trusting that process. I think we already covered this, but for newcomers entering the UX field, what essential advice would you give them today?
[00:15:45] Marvin: First thing is give yourself time. You don't have to learn it all in six months and you won't, but you can get started. And then get as much hands on project experience as you can right from the get go. It can be paid, but it doesn't have to be paid. I am totally fine with [00:16:00] including bootcamp projects in your portfolio.
[00:16:02] I think it's still work you've done. Not all case studies have to be the full UX design process, right? Because everyone knows that it's been in the industry for a while that you don't always get to do the whole process. So it's totally fine. But get some experience. And then connect to the community as fast as you can.
[00:16:18] Don't try to do it all by yourself because it is a lot and it can get frustrating and draining exchange with the community, grab someone that is more senior and have a conversation with them, have them give you feedback on early work that you're doing as early as possible, even if it hurts. And it's scary.
[00:16:36] We're all friendly people. Usually. And mentors like to help out. So reach out to the community for sure.
[00:16:41] Ayan: Do you have any resources for people who want to reach out to connect with others in the UX community.
[00:16:46] Marvin: I'm a resource. You can always reach out to me.
[00:16:47] You can find me on LinkedIn or my website, MarvinMinutesHassan. com. So you can definitely do that. But one platform that I think has a pretty good standing right now. And seems to be really engaged ADP list. [00:17:00] I'm on there as well. you can find good mentors there. And there's a lot of conversations, especially for juniors that are happening.
[00:17:06] Ayan: We'll definitely include everything in the show notes. And I agree. ADPL list is a great resource. There's so many people who are really generous with their time and providing you feedback that I always find super insightful. So check that out.
[00:17:18] Marvin: And if I may add one more thing, if you are, maybe not in your first days of UX, try to start giving back on platforms like ADPLIST or wherever you can, because there's always someone that comes after you, so there's always someone that can learn from you, plus you will learn a lot by teaching and by having conversations and giving feedback to more junior people as well, so it's going to help your career as well.
[00:17:40] Ayan: So you're saying pivot from being a mentee to a mentor.
[00:17:44] Marvin: Yeah, do both. I'm a coach and I'm a coachee at the same time. I work with coaches to help me understand better. And yeah, you can do both at the same time.
[00:17:52] Ayan: Yeah, that makes me think when you said you're not going to learn in six months, my first thought was, do we ever really learn it all? I think it's like an endless [00:18:00] process that we're in our roles. There's always new challenges based on the requirements, the industry. So don't feel like you have to learn everything ASAP.
[00:18:08] Marvin: Absolutely.
[00:18:08] Ayan: So let's step up a bit what do you think will be the impact of AI on UX design?
[00:18:14] Marvin: Wow.
[00:18:15] I tend to not discuss AI too much. Because I've been in the field for, all these years now, in a way it feels like another tool and we've been through this kind of scare of we're not going to be valuable and we're all going to get fired now a few times already.
[00:18:28] I do see some huge benefits in getting stuff done quickly. you can definitely craft some UI or Design patterns with AI very quickly. You can definitely use it to complete like imagery right now. I think for the foreseeable future, human connection. And human understanding will still be a large part of the designer's job.
[00:18:48] And if you can focus on that, you'll be safe for a while. So I'm not too scared. And there's the saying, I don't know who said it first, but I've heard it a few times now. And I think it's true. You're not going to be replaced by your AI, but [00:19:00] you will be replaced by someone that is using AI because they are more effective and more efficient.
[00:19:05] And adhering to that kind of making use of the tool. to be more effective and efficient as a designer that can help that's what we should be doing right now. And understanding also maybe what the changes of these kinds of tools are bringing to our communities at large, or, societies, even.
[00:19:24] So I see the future relatively bright still.
[00:19:27] Ayan: I like that. I like the optimism. And I agree with you. I think AI is just a tool in many tools that we use. And it also can change based on the task that we're doing. But I feel like we don't know where AI will take us as designers, but I hope it will eradicate Lorem Ipsum.
[00:19:42] Marvin: I get that. Yeah. I'm there with you for sure.
[00:19:45] Ayan: That's going to do it for this episode of the Ascend UX podcast. I hope you listening today also enjoyed the conversation and perhaps are preparing to reflect on how you can build your career with intention, regardless of just starting out, have been in UX game for a few years or are UX [00:20:00] veteran.
[00:20:00] If you have any questions, topics, suggestions, Or just want to say hi.
[00:20:03] Don't be shy. I'd love to hear from you. You can reach out to us at ascenduxatpros. com. That is A S C E N D U X at P R O S dot com. Also, please rate, follow, subscribe, or leave a comment on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or whichever service you're using to listen to us today.
[00:20:22] And thanks again, Marvin, for sitting down with me today.
[00:20:25] Tell me, how can listeners reach out to you and continue this conversation?
[00:20:28] Marvin: The easiest way to reach out to me basically is LinkedIn. I think it's a great platform for jobs and designers at large. The community is nice there. So ping me at LinkedIn or reach out to me at my website, Marvin - Hassan. com. I'm always open to have a conversation.
[00:20:42] Ayan: Cool. Thank you , Marvin. It was great to chat with you and bringing your insights to the conversation. It's always great. Also, as a UX leader and manager to talk with others to be like, okay, I'm not alone in those challenges.
[00:20:52] So thank you so much.
[00:20:54] Marvin: Likewise. Thank you. [00:21:00]