It’s easy to get caught up learning the latest design tools or staying ahead of the newest trends. But have you considered another activity that could really help your UX journey—participating in your local professional community? Helena Levison joins us as a special guest and shares her story of starting CPHUX, Denmark’s largest UX community. We cover a bunch of topics such as the valuable services a professional community can offer its members, learning what UX is really like from current professionals, overcoming shyness, and even what it takes to be a successful community organizer. So close your web browser, stop tinkering with your portfolio, and go meet some new designers! You might tap into the “hidden” job market and discover your next career opportunity. But more importantly, you might learn a lot and make some new friends along the way.
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Just out of curiosity, how long have you guys been around for?
Helena: [00:00:02] Okay, so, all good stories start at a bar, right? (laughter) And so did CPHUX! We went to an event and we just sat and talked about, "There should be something more!" like, "It's not enough, and we want to network". And that actually became CPHUX.
Evan: [00:00:17] So I have to ask an important question: did you write it on a bar napkin or a coaster, by chance?
Howdy friends! This is the Ascend UX podcast, a show about the experience of user experience design. I'm Evan Sunwall.
Ayan: [00:00:48] And I'm Ayan Bihi.
Aspiring UX designers tend to focus a lot on UX education or creating a good design portfolio. However, many overlook the benefit of getting involved in their local design community and growing a professional network. Learning UX from people already doing it can be hugely informative about the realities of the job or developing practical skills. And a bigger network can unlock more job opportunities and referrals from the "hidden job market".
So, to help us learn more about professional communities, we have a special guest today, who's not only an active member within a design community, but also the co-founder.
Helena Levison is known to the Danish UX ecosystem as the "Queen of UX", her resilience in raising the industry standards of UX design is a force to be reckoned with. She has done hundreds of events, making talented UX professionals share their knowledge with the world. She's built-up Denmark's largest UX community, CPHUX - short for Copenhagen User Experience. She curates weekly UX online events across the entire world, and CPHUX's global calendar to democratize the knowledge being shared. She brings her personality, dedication, and compassion to the world of UX. She is also the host and co-creator of the podcast Why UX?
Welcome, Helena! Thank you so much for joining Evan & I today to talk about your firsthand experiences building Denmark's largest UX community.
Helena: [00:02:13] Yay! It's so awesome to be here!
Ayan: [00:02:17] Can you talk in more detail about what CPHUX does?
Helena: [00:02:21] Yeah, so, I mean, we have communities all over the world and there would be a UX community in Copenhagen without us. But what we're trying to do is become this kind of "light tower" to create transparency about what is actually happening in the ecosystem of Copenhagen.
Evan: [00:02:36] So what specific problems were you trying to solve? I mean, starting a community takes a lot of energy, a lot of effort, not something that we all kind of just embark on. What were you trying to help out with?
Helena: [00:02:47] When I started being a community leader or builder, I started the chapter of Ladies that UX: Copenhagen, and it was really quickly that I discovered that there was a need for more than just a monthly meetup.
The ecosystem had a lot of questions, there was a lot of unanswered things, and a lot of confusion. And I think that confusion is as basic as "what does UX encompass?" and that was the reason why I started it. I'm passionate about this. I'm passionate about the professional field, and I'm passionate about the people, I want to create an impact on the industry and not just in one specific company.
Evan: [00:03:19] Yeah, that broad scope, helping out all those people about what is this path that can be really beneficial and helpful.
Ayan: [00:03:26] Just out of curiosity, how long have you guys been around for? CPHUX?
Helena: [00:03:29] Okay. So all good stories start at a bar, right? (laughter) And so did CPHUX! We went to an event and we just sat and talked about, "There should be something more!" like, "It's not enough, and we want to network and we don't want to go to courses that are like"... most UX courses are extremely expensive, and this was before the digital wave was rolling as hard as it is right now with a lot of online courses. It was 2017. And then I ended up changing two months into my master thesis, I changed everything and I was just like, "I'm going to do this UX thing instead!" And that actually became CPHUX, and of course we've had so many iterations on what it is that we do and how we do it over those years.
I'm really happy that the core and the vision of what I tried to do back in 2017 is actually the same that it is today. We've had different approaches to it, but we never stopped trying to raise the industry standard of UX design.
Evan: [00:04:29] So I have to ask an important question: did you write it on a bar napkin or a coaster, by chance?
Helena: [00:04:35] No, (laughing) I wish I did. But I literally have pictures of us afterwards, going to like this pizzeria place and like ordering fries and steaks and weird food for, it was, I guess, a Tuesday evening or something. But no, I wish there was a napkin.
Ayan: [00:04:51] That way you could frame it and have it a reminder.
Helena: [00:04:55] Yeah. Guys, always — if you go to a bar and brainstorm ideas — draw on something, like, it just... it's invaluable!
Ayan: [00:05:03] So how did you guys go about building your community?
Helena: [00:05:06] Well, first things first was just doing events. In the beginning, it was like my master thesis, so I analyzed like community stuff, and then I tried to see can I make money from it, and that was the struggle, right? Like how do you make money? You don't want to milk your people, but you also want to be able to put bread butter on the table. Right now we have this subscription plan where you, as a member, get portfolio feedback with us, and we talk directly to the companies, so we really have a sense of what they're looking for. We have the job board that is generating money, and we're now looking to make strategic partnerships with other companies.
Actually, it's not announced yet, but we're actually partnering up with ADP list — so Amazing Design List. And that's just really cool to like, have them. We've always been like, we're not getting into mentorship because ADP list is doing such a great job. Also UX coffee hours. There's so many good players in this, we're like, "No, no, let them do that. And then let us focus on what is not already in the marketplace."
Evan: [00:06:07] So you're, you're trying to be more of a nexus of related services where people are doing really good work elsewhere on these other fronts and kind of bringing them together and not trying to compete with your own community members in terms of offering services to them. So let's talk about that a little bit more. What is your most popular service that you offer?
Helena: [00:06:23] It depends on what lens you take on it. What other communities do a lot is that they have knowledge-sharing events and I'm all for those because I love them. But what we're trying to do is take a different spin on it. So we're really trying to have our events learn what is happening in the Copenhagen market better. I think what we do that is unique is that angle to try to create that transparency around what is it actually like to work in this city or in this country?
I had a meeting today with a really awesome woman from UXPA, so UX Professional Association. She's from London, and we talked about doing a community event, partnered event. So we would have like some Danish people who moved to London talk about what is it actually like to move to London. And then have some British people who moved to Copenhagen talk about what it's actually like to move to Copenhagen and talk about what would it actually mean to immigrate to another country. Because that is really hard to do, I've tried it. There's a lot of like unwritten things that you don't know when you're a native person.
Evan: [00:07:23] All the secret knowledge that you didn't realize you needed to make good professional decisions on like UX opportunities and jobs or what it might be like to work in those other areas. Interesting. Yeah.
Helena: [00:07:34] I think that was what we want to separate ourselves from. To be that community where you can tap into that. What I want to achieve, is that when you become a member of CPHUX you really get a good insight into what is happening and you get almost like a competitive advantage because there's so much of this knowledge that is so unique that you just can't tap into anywhere else. You can borrow books and read so many articles on what is UX design or how to work as a product designer or whatever, right? There's so much amazing content out there, but what is it like to work in Copenhagen? That just doesn't exist anywhere.
Ayan: [00:08:12] What I think is really interesting is that by raising the standard of UX, you're also kind of creating a standard definition of what is UX, and I think that's something that we're really missing today in our field is that there's so much forms of education — we've covered that as an episode — there are so many definitions of what we do. Are you a product designer, UX designer, service designer? I heard recently business designer. So I think that's really awesome that you guys are taking that role because we're missing that in our field today.
Helena: [00:08:40] Yeah, and it's not easy because there's also people creating content that doesn't know what UX is and doesn't even have the integrity to care about it. And if you wind up on a course or reading that type of article, you're just going to get even more confused.
And I think that's also the problem that every school also comes with their own, like, "what are we going to coin this education? Because we need to stand out" and that's the clash between branding and the reality, really. But even in companies, right? This is a product designer, but then in other companies that would be a digital designer and other companies that would be a UX/UI designer and just like, it's just — the job title jungle is impossible. (laughs)
Ayan: [00:09:19] That's a great analogy — the jungle — it really is.
Helena: [00:09:23] And I don't think we will ever agree. And I think it's just a matter of time before we have a new term take over what UX is.
Ayan: [00:09:32] Do you have any advice for somebody who's looking to find a design community to join? Are there like certain points for somebody to look out to see that this is a good or a healthy community for them to invest their time into?
Helena: [00:09:43] In general, my advice is if you're new in either a place, like if you just moved to a new city or if you're new to UX or design or whatever, try to seek out those communities and attend events and socialize because it's so important to build your connections. And then go add them on LinkedIn afterwards, so you're maintaining that relationship with them.
I would say the best way to see if a community is good or not is the people that are organizing it. Are they there to talk about themselves? Because then they're there for selfish reasons and they actually probably don't even care about the community, they're just doing it as a way of promoting themselves in their own careers. Or are they there because they genuinely care about the craft, the profession that is UX?
And the people that are there. That's always a good and healthy sign. But again, you can have really, really horrible organizers, but amazing communities because the people are still nice.
So I think it's always about, what are you going to make of it? But again, the first thing is getting out of the door and I know that UXers tend to be a bit shy and we're not these type of superstars that are like aching for the stage light. UX people are curious and empathical people, but they are often quite shy and a little bit like, ah, uncomfortable and networking has a reputation of being this nasty, sticky thing where you need to — it's about talking to as many people as possible. And I hate when I meet those types of networkers. Just stop talking about networking. Think about it as I want to go out and actually meet new people. And I want to socialize. And I want to make genuine connections with other people, and that's going to take you a long way. And I'm always like, if you're having an amazing conversation with just one person, then you're going away with an amazing conversation compared to trying to have 10, like mediocre, like borderlining bad conversations where you just seem a little bit desperate. And you never know. Like the person that you've talked to all night, you might be looking for a job and you never know if that person can actually be that provider. So also just like, if you are looking for a job, don't ever feel like there's something wrong with you. Just be like, "Hey, by the way, I'm open for new opportunities." So... that was a very long advice. (laughs)
Ayan: [00:11:59] But very poignant.
Evan: [00:12:01] Yeah, as a hiring manager, I can also reiterate that there is a value to making those connections. It's powerful. And yeah, there is kind of an icky aura around networking that I think — especially for junior people — you can get over that and you can learn a heck of a lot: where you live, the opportunities, the way that company works, you can tap into it. It's so helpful.
Helena: [00:12:21] Mmhmm, when I lived in Vancouver, there was a period where I was looking for a job and I would literally go to at least three events per day just because I was so hungry for knowledge as well, and I'm not going to sit at home and write like cover letters, because I never got any call backs anyways. What I did was go out and just put myself out there. I talked to people and just like, "Yeah, if you know someone who's looking for a UX designer, think of me!" And I landed two jobs from that. And of course, put yourself in the right: I would go to tech or startup events where I would meet the right people. So again, put yourself in the position to meet the right people and then just be kind and genuine because that is what people are attracted to. And intelligent.
Evan: [00:13:00] So important. Yeah. So let's talk about a slightly less happier question. How has the pandemic changed your community activities and the job market from your view?
Helena: [00:13:10] Yeah. I mean, in Denmark, we did not see a lot of people get fired. I mean, we have a job board, so we know how many jobs were getting posted. We saw a little bit of a stop, but that was really quickly picked up again. And now we're back at overcapacity, like more than we were before.
So it has not been like a negative thing, but we did see a lot of people changing jobs because suddenly people were at home and they were like reflecting on what they actually were doing. So we did see a lot of change in the job market, but I think it was more like people just being like, "I actually don't really like my job. This is perhaps an opportunity to start looking for a new job!" And I think that's actually really healthy and I'm really excited to see how COVID is gonna make for more flexible workplaces in the future. That's what I'm hoping for.
I think more people are gonna say, "I actually get more out of my day if I work from home or out of the office." I definitely know that in the Danish culture, it's been like this positive surprise that people were actually able to get their job done, even though they were at home all day. And I think especially people — like families — have really enjoyed the fact that they could flex their time and be with the kids. And then when the kids were taking a nap, then they go work, work, work, work, and still get the job done without sitting and counting hours specifically.
Ayan: [00:14:25] So, my other question goes back to advice. This time to you. What advice would you give your past self before starting a community like CPHUX?
Helena: [00:14:34] Oh, my God take a business course. (laughter)
I'm the community voice and it's so clear and it's very good at times, but I wish that I was better at making money. If you want to, if you want to be really rich, don't, don't build a community from scratch because it's hard, it's a lot of work. But at the same time, like relax and enjoy the ride.
And get a co-founder who has more focus on money than you do. If you're like me. I mean, the best thing that happened to me was really meeting my co-founder Jayden and teaming up with him. I don't even know where I would have been without him. I can't even imagine a reality without him at the moment and I'm just so proud of him and what we are able to achieve together, so that's just so amazing.
Evan: [00:15:19] So a partner really helps, having that different point of view in that support...
Helena: [00:15:23] Yeah, like the synergy effect and also just the fact that you can sound off ideas with each other and you can be like, "Is this insane? Or is it okay?" And it's like, "No, no, that's a great idea!" And also just the fact that we have been able to divide and conquer, right? So he's more focused on building the product, I'm more focused on building the community and then we meet and we make it merge and we get it to make sense.
He has like seven years of experience working as a project manager, so he also knows how to structure and also work. We have some amazing contributors as well. Again, we would not be able to do this without their contribution, and he's really good at managing them and like, kind of.
Checking in with them. Do you need anything? And I'm more like skipping through the town opening doors. And he's really good at like going in and making a deal and then closing the door again (laughs).
Ayan: [00:16:12] Sounds really complimentary! It sounds like a dream team or a tag team.
Helena: [00:16:15] Yeah, and it's so hard to find a person that you actually work well with and a person that can match your own commitment level. And it's also part like letting go because it was my baby and I had taken care of it from birth. And just to like, be like, "Okay, now you're responsible for this." And then also showing that trust and being like, "Jayden, you make the decision because you're in charge of this." And it's just a, it's, it's a very respectful and appreciative relationship that we have nowadays.
Evan: [00:16:42] What advice would you give someone just starting their UX career?
Helena: [00:16:46] Again, network. And try a lot of different things. Go to hackathons, or startup weekends and try to work with other people and try not to always take the same role. Because you might realize that you love something, but you won't realize until you try it because you can't figure out what you like from only reading about things.
So it's about getting crafty, getting it through your hands, right? And then figure out what you like and make sure that you always follow the passion because you can get swallowed up by trends like AI. And then suddenly lose sight of what is actually that you like to do, and your job is going to be eight hours of your everyday life. So make sure that you actually like what you do and make sure that you get, when you get that first job, like be critical towards that as well. So, if you get a bad vibe from the people, say no. Because it's probably not going to be nice working there and don't fight it.
My first job, I definitely said yes to something where my gut feeling was saying no. And I mean, it was good people, but it was just like not the best working culture for me. And I wish that I could go back and tell myself, like, " Don't do it for the money only!" Find a team where you really feel like you fit in.
But again, it's also part of my story. I wouldn't be here today doing this if I hadn't had that experience. So for that, I'm also grateful. That's the whole point of like, be on the ride that is your life and own it. And stick by the choices that you make, even though you can look back and say, "that was probably not the best choice ever."
Ayan: [00:18:08] Give yourself grace, you know? Go for the ride and be kind to yourself.
Helena: [00:18:13] Yeah. You only get one life. You don't want to sit back when you're 80 and regret. The worst thing is living with regret.
So even though it's scary at times and it's like, " Oh, I'm making a decision. And I don't know if it's the best, I should be more adult." No! You should seize the moment. And again, of course don't sell all you own. (laughs) ...well, perhaps do sell all you own and start working remotely from Bali or something, I don't know! Like again, dare to take chances and just be reasonable. And own it.
Evan: [00:18:40] You're owning your decisions, maybe you said, "Yeah, I wish I hadn't made that decision based on compensation", but you learned a lot from it and that's what you end up taking with you into the future.
And going forward with grace and understanding that that is what got you where you are right now. That's pretty powerful.
Helena: [00:18:55] I mean, if I hadn't had that bad experience as a junior, I wouldn't be building this community right now. Back then, I was sure that I was gonna get a job at an agency and then work my way up to the top and then just like rule with power (laughter) and, and then instead like, I grew up in like — Denmark is a very socialistic country, right? — So we care a lot about the group and we want to raise the group, not just individuals. So there's definitely that cultural legacy as well, that I'm proud of. So yeah, trying to do something good for the generations of UX, hopefully to come, that would be badass. (laughs)
Ayan: [00:19:37] Well you're on your way! You've laid some great foundations. So...
The takeaway that I enjoyed the most was that we often apply our interest or passion for others in our work professionally, but sometimes you might be afraid of applying that personally, in the aspect of becoming a member of a community or even networking.
So I think that's really important too, is as you said, it's going to these events and trying to get to know other people who you already share a passion with, which is design and UX and creating a bridge for that
Helena: [00:20:07] Especially, because — at least here in Copenhagen — we see a lot of people working as silo designers, and it's just nice to have peers and like-minded people to talk to. And the people that you studied with are probably going to go in different directions, so it's nice to get new people who have more like industry insights as well. So yeah, definitely. Go out, don't be afraid! Just do it.
Ayan: [00:20:29] Thank you, Helena, again, for taking the time to chat with us today! Where else can people learn more about you or your work? Where would you like to lead them?
Helena: [00:20:36] I mean, definitely check out the website, CPHUX.com. C-P-H-U-X.com. There's that amazing event calendar, and if you are — obviously it's limited to the listeners, — like people who want to get a job in Copenhagen, that's the place to go. And we are looking at doing a lot of really cool things in the future, but again, who knows where we're going to end up. It's been a crazy ride until now.
And then of course, check out my podcast, Why UX? It's on iTunes and Spotify, and, probably Google Play as well. And give us a good review! I always appreciate that. And of course, if anyone wants to link up with me on LinkedIn, feel free to do that as well. I always love talking to people and it's so empowering now that there's really this international wave going on, where you just... I mean, I talk to people from all over the world and it's so interesting to hear about what is the UX situation like in their country. And it's so different as well. So that's just I love that. That's awesome.
Ayan: [00:21:33] That's how we connected! I dropped the line to you on, on LinkedIn. So It works! So thank you for the links. We'll include that in the episode's show notes. And once again, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us and share your experiences of building your successful community, CPHUX!
Helena: [00:21:50] Thank you for letting me come in and talk to you guys! It was really awesome. And also sharing this story. It's a bit of a unique one. That's awesome! Thank you.
Ayan: [00:22:15]
I feel like I need to seek more of what and how I can be involved in a community, not just what I can bring, but what can I also obtain? What I really liked was that it's not for only people starting their career. I think it's also that you can go back to and develop your skills. So I think, why not? UX is a never-ending field of growth. And I think that's also something that can be reflected to us as practitioners is that we're never ending our process of learning new things. And a community can definitely be a great tool in that process as well.
Evan: [00:22:45] Yeah, I think her point about there's a lot you can learn about other companies, cause the job title just doesn't tell you enough about how these roles are like, that is a really great point. Not just for junior people who are just getting started, but even people who have some years of experience in.
To get involved in your local community or her community about getting this information that is not on a certification track or Coursera or these online resources. You have to go talk to the people who do the job, and that could really inform you about your own career path. I think it's a wonderful point.
Ayan: [00:23:19] Yeah, and it can be so much more efficient by having those conversations rather than spending hours and hours in a dark hole on Google of like learning certain ways of doing your work. Why not just go to an event, be it digital in today's context. And just ask somebody who might be more of an expert in that field than you. And that creates a dialogue. And that creates an exchange.
Evan: [00:23:41] Speaking of dialogue, that's going to do it for this episode of the Ascend UX Podcast. We'd love your questions and feedback. Please send it to ascend ux@pros.com. That's ascend ux@pros.com. Also rate, follow, subscribe, or leave comments on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or whichever service are using to listen to us. We definitely appreciate it.
Ayan, it's been a pleasure. Helena, thank you so much for your insights.
Ayan: [00:24:02] Until next time.